visas and invitation letters
Can anybody comment on the visas and invitation letters for people who need such things? I hate having to waste time on such things instead of doing real development work but I've had some contact from developers in our community who need this assistance and there is a lot of pressure to do it quickly so they can make flight reservations before the prices shoot up. I found an old FOSDEM FAQ that says FOSDEM only provides the letters for main track speakers and that other participating organizations should provide the letters for any other guests. Is that still the case? Searching further, I found Belgium's embassies all publish slightly different guidance on this and obviously not all of it is in English, some is in Belgian languages or local languages served by the embassies. Some refer to a requirement for a guarantor who is resident in Belgium. Does that mean invitation letters also have to come from organizations with an address in Belgium? Are there any other free software organizations with addresses in Belgium who will do such letters? Does every invitation letter have to be a letter of guarantee as well, or can invitation letters be issued without specifying any guarantor? What exactly needs to be in the invitation letters? Could anybody from FOSDEM provide a template that other organizations could use to make up letters? Could this even be done on a self-serve basis with a web-form in future?
+1 to all of Daniel's questions. I'd also like to help our international attendees (and willing to spend some time doing that). The FOSDEM FAQ makes it sound like there's a legal or moral obligation that prevents FOSDEM from inviting any random attendee, so they have to be a conference speaker to get a letter from the FOSDEM org itself. If so, it'd be useful to know the details of this for other people who want to help invite non-EU attendees. On 21 December 2015 at 16:28, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote:
Some refer to a requirement for a guarantor who is resident in Belgium. Does that mean invitation letters also have to come from organizations with an address in Belgium?
I personally don't think the embassies themselves know European law all that well on this point. They keep referring to it as a Schengen visa, which, if so, might well mean that any citizen of a Schengen country can invite the person to apply for the visa.
Does every invitation letter have to be a letter of guarantee as well, or can invitation letters be issued without specifying any guarantor?
If anybody has information (and especially experience) on the responsibilities of guarantors that would be quite helpful as well. It'd make the decision to issue such a letter from e.g. my company much easier.
Could this even be done on a self-serve basis with a web-form in future?
Not sure the government would like that very much, but I suppose if we're going to be making one without question for everybody who asks, it does make sense. Greetings, Emanuil
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Hi, I come from Russia and I can share a bit of experience from the other side, i.e. what is needed when applying for a visa. A letter of invitation serves one or two purposes of the ones listed below: 1) Support that this person is indeed invited to a given event. A consulate may request further proof of person's involvement in the industry. If he or she is a, let's say, a bus driver (not taht I want to offend any bus drivers), a consulate would probably have further questions. If you are inviting - you should probably ask a couple of questions as well why this person wants to go to an OSS conference. In a way, yes, you guarantee this person has a solid reason to attend. In light of all recent tragic events in Europe that is a bit more than formality now. 2) Identify the means of travel. In case of FOSDEM it should be clearly stated that the person is paying himself all travel expenses. That would mean the person needs to present at the consulate a hotel booking, airline or whatever tickets booking and may even need to present a credit card or a monthly statement from a bank to support a claim that he/she have sufficient funds to travel. The invitation should say that the cost of attending the conference is 0. hth, Ivan On 21/12/2015 19:42, Emanuil Tolev wrote:
+1 to all of Daniel's questions. I'd also like to help our international attendees (and willing to spend some time doing that). The FOSDEM FAQ makes it sound like there's a legal or moral obligation that prevents FOSDEM from inviting any random attendee, so they have to be a conference speaker to get a letter from the FOSDEM org itself. If so, it'd be useful to know the details of this for other people who want to help invite non-EU attendees.
On 21 December 2015 at 16:28, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro <mailto:daniel@pocock.pro>> wrote:
Some refer to a requirement for a guarantor who is resident in Belgium. Does that mean invitation letters also have to come from organizations with an address in Belgium?
I personally don't think the embassies themselves know European law all that well on this point. They keep referring to it as a Schengen visa, which, if so, might well mean that any citizen of a Schengen country can invite the person to apply for the visa.
Does every invitation letter have to be a letter of guarantee as well, or can invitation letters be issued without specifying any guarantor?
If anybody has information (and especially experience) on the responsibilities of guarantors that would be quite helpful as well. It'd make the decision to issue such a letter from e.g. my company much easier.
Could this even be done on a self-serve basis with a web-form in future?
Not sure the government would like that very much, but I suppose if we're going to be making one without question for everybody who asks, it does make sense.
Greetings, Emanuil
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Even though the term invitation letter sounds simple enough, it's a bit more complicated than that. What your doing is getting into a legal contract between yourself/company and the Belgian ministry of the interior. You agree to be liable for all expenses in case this person doesn't leave Belgium/Schengen zone as foreseen. In case of a forced expulsion this is thousands of euros. I would also be very surprised if it's still possible to accomplish all the needed paperwork in one month. It involves going to the municipality, they need to contact the ministry of the interior and they in turn need to contact the embassy of the country, back and forth. The person also needs to present themselves at this embassy, at least twice. The process usually takes 3 - 8 months. Anyway it's not something you'd do for any random person either. A lot of trust is involved. Jo
On 21/12/15 18:08, Jo wrote:
Even though the term invitation letter sounds simple enough, it's a bit more complicated than that.
What your doing is getting into a legal contract between yourself/company and the Belgian ministry of the interior. You agree to be liable for all expenses in case this person doesn't leave Belgium/Schengen zone as foreseen. In case of a forced expulsion this is thousands of euros.
That is a letter of guarantee. It is not the same as a letter of invitation. One letter can combine both concepts, but I've also seen invitation letters that don't include a guarantee.
I would also be very surprised if it's still possible to accomplish all the needed paperwork in one month. It involves going to the municipality, they need to contact the ministry of the interior and they in turn need to contact the embassy of the country, back and forth. The person also needs to present themselves at this embassy, at least twice. The process usually takes 3 - 8 months.
Anyway it's not something you'd do for any random person either. A lot of trust is involved.
It is for some former GSoC students. I think that the whole guarantee thing tends to be necessary for longer visas, e.g. exchange programs, or wife has a baby and her mother wants to come and stay 6 months. Regards, Daniel
Gah, what a headache. Is there some kind of tourist visa that Schengen allows? I can't believe we allow nobody to enter the Schengen area without an invite by a citizen, that just seems ridiculous. What if they just want to see the Grand Place or something? I'd say visiting FOSDEM is an even better reason for somebody who would otherwise be approved for a tourist visa anyway. http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/tourist-schengen-visa/ indicates a letter *is* required when visiting friends and relatives but no letter is needed when no such visit is taking place (I suppose then you can't say "I'm visiting a friend" without any proof by said friend). Maybe there's a higher chance of the application being approved if you really are visiting friends/relatives, but hey, if it's possible to apply without a letter then that'll cover most people and they won't have to seek help. On 21 December 2015 at 17:13, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote:
On 21/12/15 18:08, Jo wrote:
Even though the term invitation letter sounds simple enough, it's a bit more complicated than that.
What your doing is getting into a legal contract between yourself/company and the Belgian ministry of the interior. You agree to be liable for all expenses in case this person doesn't leave Belgium/Schengen zone as foreseen. In case of a forced expulsion this is thousands of euros.
That is a letter of guarantee. It is not the same as a letter of invitation. One letter can combine both concepts, but I've also seen invitation letters that don't include a guarantee.
I would also be very surprised if it's still possible to accomplish all the needed paperwork in one month. It involves going to the municipality, they need to contact the ministry of the interior and they in turn need to contact the embassy of the country, back and forth. The person also needs to present themselves at this embassy, at least twice. The process usually takes 3 - 8 months.
Anyway it's not something you'd do for any random person either. A lot of trust is involved.
It is for some former GSoC students.
I think that the whole guarantee thing tends to be necessary for longer visas, e.g. exchange programs, or wife has a baby and her mother wants to come and stay 6 months.
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/fosdem
Yes, one can purchase a tour to Brussels and go to FOSDEM instead. In most cases invitation is not needed but one does need to actually purchase a travel package. For some countries traveling without travel agencies is allowed, for others it is not. Pretty much depends on a given consulate worker that he would believe that "the applicant has solid reasons to return home". Ivan On 21/12/2015 20:24, Emanuil Tolev wrote:
Gah, what a headache. Is there some kind of tourist visa that Schengen allows? I can't believe we allow nobody to enter the Schengen area without an invite by a citizen, that just seems ridiculous. What if they just want to see the Grand Place or something? I'd say visiting FOSDEM is an even better reason for somebody who would otherwise be approved for a tourist visa anyway.
http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/tourist-schengen-visa/ indicates a letter *is* required when visiting friends and relatives but no letter is needed when no such visit is taking place (I suppose then you can't say "I'm visiting a friend" without any proof by said friend). Maybe there's a higher chance of the application being approved if you really are visiting friends/relatives, but hey, if it's possible to apply without a letter then that'll cover most people and they won't have to seek help.
On 21 December 2015 at 17:13, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro <mailto:daniel@pocock.pro>> wrote:
On 21/12/15 18:08, Jo wrote: > Even though the term invitation letter sounds simple enough, it's a bit > more complicated than that. > > What your doing is getting into a legal contract between > yourself/company and the Belgian ministry of the interior. You agree to > be liable for all expenses in case this person doesn't leave > Belgium/Schengen zone as foreseen. In case of a forced expulsion this is > thousands of euros. >
That is a letter of guarantee. It is not the same as a letter of invitation. One letter can combine both concepts, but I've also seen invitation letters that don't include a guarantee.
> I would also be very surprised if it's still possible to accomplish all > the needed paperwork in one month. It involves going to the > municipality, they need to contact the ministry of the interior and they > in turn need to contact the embassy of the country, back and forth. The > person also needs to present themselves at this embassy, at least twice. > The process usually takes 3 - 8 months. > > Anyway it's not something you'd do for any random person either. A lot > of trust is involved. >
It is for some former GSoC students.
I think that the whole guarantee thing tends to be necessary for longer visas, e.g. exchange programs, or wife has a baby and her mother wants to come and stay 6 months.
Regards,
Daniel _______________________________________________ FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org <mailto:FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org> https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/fosdem
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On 21/12/15 18:24, Emanuil Tolev wrote:
Gah, what a headache. Is there some kind of tourist visa that Schengen allows? I can't believe we allow nobody to enter the Schengen area without an invite by a citizen, that just seems ridiculous.
The thing that is really ridiculous is that European countries ransacked the countries these people come from and now these people are the ones being fingerprinted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Darkness
On Mon, December 21, 2015 18:32, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 21/12/15 18:24, Emanuil Tolev wrote:
Gah, what a headache. Is there some kind of tourist visa that Schengen allows? I can't believe we allow nobody to enter the Schengen area without an invite by a citizen, that just seems ridiculous.
The thing that is really ridiculous is that European countries ransacked the countries these people come from and now these people are the ones being fingerprinted
I think your sneer at present-day Belgians by relating them to events from colonial history is completely out of line. Belgians host a great conference for us through hard work and it's even free of charge. On their mailing list, they can do without your references to their colonial history which I'm sure they personally had not the slightest part in. Or even any politial discussion, for that matter, because it's completely off topic. Thijs
The politics is relevant only insofar as one needs to be aware, it is probably too late to start a visa process for someone from our former colonies. On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Thijs Kinkhorst <thijs@kinkhorst.com> wrote:
On Mon, December 21, 2015 18:32, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 21/12/15 18:24, Emanuil Tolev wrote:
Gah, what a headache. Is there some kind of tourist visa that Schengen allows? I can't believe we allow nobody to enter the Schengen area without an invite by a citizen, that just seems ridiculous.
The thing that is really ridiculous is that European countries ransacked the countries these people come from and now these people are the ones being fingerprinted
I think your sneer at present-day Belgians by relating them to events from colonial history is completely out of line. Belgians host a great conference for us through hard work and it's even free of charge. On their mailing list, they can do without your references to their colonial history which I'm sure they personally had not the slightest part in. Or even any politial discussion, for that matter, because it's completely off topic.
Thijs _______________________________________________ FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/fosdem
On 21/12/15 19:07, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote:
On Mon, December 21, 2015 18:32, Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 21/12/15 18:24, Emanuil Tolev wrote:
Gah, what a headache. Is there some kind of tourist visa that Schengen allows? I can't believe we allow nobody to enter the Schengen area without an invite by a citizen, that just seems ridiculous.
The thing that is really ridiculous is that European countries ransacked the countries these people come from and now these people are the ones being fingerprinted
I think your sneer at present-day Belgians by relating them to events from colonial history is completely out of line. Belgians host a great conference for us through hard work and it's even free of charge. On their mailing list, they can do without your references to their colonial history which I'm sure they personally had not the slightest part in. Or even any politial discussion, for that matter, because it's completely off topic.
It is not directed at Belgians although I apologize if you feel that way, almost all European countries played their part in their own way, some still do but more discretely, and all the EU countries are now doing this nasty fingerprinting at the border. My own country allowed the UK to come and nuke members of the indigenous population at Maralinga. Regards, Daniel
I've sponsored many visitors and immigrants into Belgium, from Africa. The paperwork involves making a "prise en charges" at the Commune, which states one will cover repatriation and medical costs if necessary. This is fairly simply though there's a limit to how many people you can sponsor, depending on your income. I've never, in a dozen years, had any issue doing this, even though many of the people I sponsored were... not entirely trustworthy. (I learned this later...) What is *much* harder is for the visitor to get a visa. This can take months, and requires convincing the consulate that the travel is justified, and the visitor has no intention of staying. Buying a return ticket, being part of an event, having formal invitations, etc. can make it easier. Yet it comes down to convincing someone who's main job has become to find creative ways of saying "No". Yes, it is extremely racist. For other regions the barriers will be lower, and for some the formal invite would be enough. -Pieter On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote:
On 21/12/15 18:24, Emanuil Tolev wrote:
Gah, what a headache. Is there some kind of tourist visa that Schengen allows? I can't believe we allow nobody to enter the Schengen area without an invite by a citizen, that just seems ridiculous.
The thing that is really ridiculous is that European countries ransacked the countries these people come from and now these people are the ones being fingerprinted
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Darkness _______________________________________________ FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/fosdem
On 21/12/15 19:11, Pieter Hintjens wrote:
I've sponsored many visitors and immigrants into Belgium, from Africa. The paperwork involves making a "prise en charges" at the Commune, which states one will cover repatriation and medical costs if necessary. This is fairly simply though there's a limit to how many people you can sponsor, depending on your income. I've never, in a dozen years, had any issue doing this, even though many of the people I sponsored were... not entirely trustworthy. (I learned this later...)
What is *much* harder is for the visitor to get a visa. This can take months, and requires convincing the consulate that the travel is justified, and the visitor has no intention of staying. Buying a return ticket, being part of an event, having formal invitations, etc. can make it easier. Yet it comes down to convincing someone who's main job has become to find creative ways of saying "No".
Yes, it is extremely racist.
For other regions the barriers will be lower, and for some the formal invite would be enough.
My own queries come from India and China and they've both heard slightly different things. I wasn't aware that it was so significantly different from region to region as well, I thought all those people without automatic entry were going through the same process. As another practical possibility, is it any easier for people to travel through any other Schengen country first, such as France, Netherlands, Germany or even Switzerland? There is a direct train from Zurich to Brussels and as Switzerland is not EU, maybe the things are slightly different there, for better or worse. Regards, Daniel
On 21-Dec-15 6:08 PM, Jo wrote:
Even though the term invitation letter sounds simple enough, it's a bit more complicated than that.
What your doing is getting into a legal contract between yourself/company and the Belgian ministry of the interior. You agree to be liable for all expenses in case this person doesn't leave Belgium/Schengen zone as foreseen. In case of a forced expulsion this is thousands of euros.
I would also be very surprised if it's still possible to accomplish all the needed paperwork in one month. It involves going to the municipality, they need to contact the ministry of the interior and they in turn need to contact the embassy of the country, back and forth. The person also needs to present themselves at this embassy, at least twice. The process usually takes 3 - 8 months.
It still would be nice to get examples of standard letters for this as well as well researched related consequences into a FAQ. Worst case it will only be useful for FOSDEMs after the upcoming one.
Anyway it's not something you'd do for any random person either. A lot of trust is involved.
Jo
-- Hennes
Daniel Pocock wrote:
I found an old FOSDEM FAQ that says FOSDEM only provides the letters for main track speakers and that other participating organizations should provide the letters for any other guests. Is that still the case?
This is still the case. The FAQ has also returned to the site, https://fosdem.org/2016/faq/ For main track speakers, FOSDEM may arrange accomodation during the event, cover reasonable travel expenses (agreed in advance) and write formal inivitations that may help in obtaining visa. FOSDEM does not provide this for other speakers, volunteers or visitors. Regards, Johan
On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote:
Can anybody comment on the visas and invitation letters for people who need such things? I hate having to waste time on such things instead of doing real development work but I've had some contact from developers in our community who need this assistance and there is a lot of pressure to do it quickly so they can make flight reservations before the prices shoot up.
FWIW, speaking from successful experience of obtaining Schengen visa several times in the past. I have travelled a few times to Eu on Schengen visa a few times in the past (though for about year or so, I'm living, and legally working, in Belgium). I attended (as a speaker) FOSDEM in 2012 (while I was not living here still), with a Schengen visa. Random notes recalling from my memory: - A letter of invitation explictly stating who will pay the expenses (flight, hotel, and meals for the duration of stay) of the attendee/speaker. (In my case, I had the advantage that a small branch of my parent company in Belgium wrote me the invitation letter.) - It greatly helps if the applicant is employed, has a steady stream of paychecks, and has income tax evidence for the past two years or more. - Having sufficient personal funds (e.g. ablity to fund by yourself for 2-3 months or so for stay+food expenses) in the bank also helps. Most of this information would be available in some form on Belgium embassy's website for respective countries. -- /kashyap
participants (9)
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Daniel Pocock -
Emanuil Tolev -
hennes＠stack.nl -
Ivan K -
Jo -
Johan van Selst -
Kashyap Chamarthy -
Pieter Hintjens -
Thijs Kinkhorst