On the FOSDEM FAQ[1], it says "If you are attending FOSDEM as part of your involvement with a project represented at our conference, we recommend you get in touch with someone you know locally who is involved in the project and ask them to invite you." One of the projects I'm involved with did that, providing an invitation letter for a developer from India and another developer from China and also arranging their travel and accommodation costs. The developer in India just got a call from the Belgian embassy asking for a second letter from FOSDEM organizers. He has previously had a Schengen visa (from an event in Germany last year) and his travel agent had told him that renewing the visa was just a formality so he already has flight and hotel bookings and he is quite keen to get this sorted out quickly. Can anybody from FOSDEM assist with these requests from the Belgian officials? Given that FOSDEM is a free event and that people don't normally register to attend, would the FOSDEM team consider providing a self-service web-form for guests like this who do need to "register" and obtain their invitation letters on demand? Note that another organization is making the financial sponsorship arrangements, this is not a request for FOSDEM to provide money or guarantees. Regards, Daniel 1. https://fosdem.org/2016/faq/
On 01/18/2016 09:38 AM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
The developer in India just got a call from the Belgian embassy asking for a second letter from FOSDEM organizers. He has previously had a Schengen visa (from an event in Germany last year) and his travel agent had told him that renewing the visa was just a formality so he already has flight and hotel bookings and he is quite keen to get this sorted out quickly. Can anybody from FOSDEM assist with these requests from the Belgian officials?
As stated in our FAQ, we can only write official invitations for speakers and other people with whom we have a business relationship. As a visitor, visiting FOSDEM is the same as visiting a museum or attending a music festival and entirely irrelevant for a visa application. Visitors in need of a visa should just apply for a tourist visa for Belgium and convince the consulate that they will leave Belgium again (book a return ticket), they have somewhere to stay in Belgium (book a hotel) and have the means to support themselves while in Belgium. Considering the above, simply presenting them with a printout of our website should be enough to show them why one would want to come to Belgium.
Given that FOSDEM is a free event and that people don't normally register to attend, would the FOSDEM team consider providing a self-service web-form for guests like this who do need to "register" and obtain their invitation letters on demand?
That would void the point of the whole "invitation letter" system, and could put the legal entity behind FOSDEM at risk. Gerry
On 18/01/16 16:27, Gerry Demaret wrote:
On 01/18/2016 09:38 AM, Daniel Pocock wrote:
The developer in India just got a call from the Belgian embassy asking for a second letter from FOSDEM organizers. He has previously had a Schengen visa (from an event in Germany last year) and his travel agent had told him that renewing the visa was just a formality so he already has flight and hotel bookings and he is quite keen to get this sorted out quickly. Can anybody from FOSDEM assist with these requests from the Belgian officials?
As stated in our FAQ, we can only write official invitations for speakers and other people with whom we have a business relationship.
As a visitor, visiting FOSDEM is the same as visiting a museum or attending a music festival and entirely irrelevant for a visa application.
Visitors in need of a visa should just apply for a tourist visa for Belgium and convince the consulate that they will leave Belgium again (book a return ticket), they have somewhere to stay in Belgium (book a hotel) and have the means to support themselves while in Belgium.
Considering the above, simply presenting them with a printout of our website should be enough to show them why one would want to come to Belgium.
There is more to it - as it is a cultural event and non-profit, he has applied to waive the visa fee, so maybe this is why the officials are looking for a stronger connection with the event - he rang them and they said they might consider other evidence, such as an entry ticket or having his name on the web site, given that he already provided an invitation letter from another organization - the FAQ encourages people to seek other local sponsors to write the letter, but that hasn't been sufficient in this case, so maybe that needs to be removed from the FAQ
Given that FOSDEM is a free event and that people don't normally register to attend, would the FOSDEM team consider providing a self-service web-form for guests like this who do need to "register" and obtain their invitation letters on demand?
That would void the point of the whole "invitation letter" system, and could put the legal entity behind FOSDEM at risk.
I'm not sure what you mean by that As far as I understand it, FOSDEM is a free event where everybody is welcome, no matter which country they were born in. Giving somebody a personalized letter that says "Dear Bob, we invite you to FOSDEM" only seems like a logical extension to the statements already on the website inviting anybody and everybody. I understand that it is different if the letter provides a financial guarantee, but that was not requested in this case. Regards, Daniel
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 18:11:21 +0100 Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote: Hi,
As far as I understand it, FOSDEM is a free event where everybody is welcome, no matter which country they were born in. Giving somebody a personalized letter that says "Dear Bob, we invite you to FOSDEM" only seems like a logical extension to the statements already on the website inviting anybody and everybody.
I understand that it is different if the letter provides a financial guarantee, but that was not requested in this case.
I'm organizing FrOSCon, a event similar to FOSDEM, although noticably smaller. I have send out PDFs on our letterhead containing something like: "we'd like to invite you to attend our conference on August 22 nd /23rd 2015. We're looking forward seeing you and are thankful for your involvement as volunteers in our event." This is by no means any legel obligation, but might help in the visa application process. Andreas, they also like fancy stamps ... -- FrOSCon 2016 August 20th - August 21st 2016, St. Augustin, Germany http://www.froscon.org --- http://www.froscon.de
Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> writes:
That would void the point of the whole "invitation letter" system, and could put the legal entity behind FOSDEM at risk.
I'm not sure what you mean by that
As far as I understand it, FOSDEM is a free event where everybody is welcome,
But Belgium and the Schengen area are *not* free countries where everybody is welcome. At least, that's what the law says and that is the reason why the law mandates invitation letters. Sending invitation letters to "everybody" would defeat the purpose of Belgian law. -- Ludovic Brenta.
On 21/01/16 00:36, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> writes:
That would void the point of the whole "invitation letter" system, and could put the legal entity behind FOSDEM at risk.
I'm not sure what you mean by that
As far as I understand it, FOSDEM is a free event where everybody is welcome,
But Belgium and the Schengen area are *not* free countries where everybody is welcome. At least, that's what the law says and that is the reason why the law mandates invitation letters. Sending invitation letters to "everybody" would defeat the purpose of Belgian law.
I feel (or at least, I hope) that our grandchildren will look back on such behavior with the same disgust that people feel today about antisemitism (which wasn't just limited to one country/dictator), discrimination against homosexuals (which is still a problem, but much less than it used to be) or the discrimination against women (100 years ago they couldn't vote[1] in most countries). Think about it for a moment, wouldn't such racist behavior look out of place in other domains, e.g, "developers in country `X' can only join the mailing list if they submit their fingerprints"? To turn the tables on that, what would happen if free software developers in the rest of the world put a clause in all their licenses and contributor agreements stating that their software can only be used by people/countries who do not impede the freedom of the developers to participate in events? It would be controversial like the GPL, but could it be worded in such a way that it would meet the definition of a "free" license and would it catch on? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage
Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 21/01/16 00:36, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> writes:
That would void the point of the whole "invitation letter" system, and could put the legal entity behind FOSDEM at risk.
I'm not sure what you mean by that
As far as I understand it, FOSDEM is a free event where everybody is welcome,
But Belgium and the Schengen area are *not* free countries where everybody is welcome. At least, that's what the law says and that is the reason why the law mandates invitation letters. Sending invitation letters to "everybody" would defeat the purpose of Belgian law.
I feel (or at least, I hope) that [...]
Your feelings and hopes have nothing to do with the law. Belgium is not exactly a dictatorship. I would not want the FOSDEM organizers to put themselves at odds with the laws of their host country just because of your feelings. -- Ludovic Brenta.
On 21 January 2016 11:40:51 CET, Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
Daniel Pocock wrote:
On 21/01/16 00:36, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> writes:
That would void the point of the whole "invitation letter" system, and could put the legal entity behind FOSDEM at risk.
I'm not sure what you mean by that
As far as I understand it, FOSDEM is a free event where everybody is welcome,
But Belgium and the Schengen area are *not* free countries where everybody is welcome. At least, that's what the law says and that is the reason why the law mandates invitation letters. Sending invitation letters to "everybody" would defeat the purpose of Belgian law.
I feel (or at least, I hope) that [...]
Your feelings and hopes have nothing to do with the law. Belgium is not exactly a dictatorship. I would not want the FOSDEM organizers to put themselves at odds with the laws of their host country just because of your feelings.
That message wasn't asking them to do such a thing, it was only written out of respect for those contributors to our community who either can't attend or have to waste a significant amount of time and energy on such things in order to do so.
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:54:01AM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
That message wasn't asking them to do such a thing, it was only written out of respect for those contributors to our community who either can't attend or have to waste a significant amount of time and energy on such things in order to do so.
Be that as it may, we (FOSDEM) are not going to put ourselves at risk of legal problems just so we can make it easier for people to attend. If we *can* make it easier for people to attend *without* putting FOSDEM vzw at risk of legal repercussions in case a person we don't actually know disappears, we will do so. Writing formal invitation letters from an automated website doesn't fit that bill, however. -- It is easy to love a country that is famous for chocolate and beer -- Barack Obama, speaking in Brussels, Belgium, 2014-03-26
I think there are two issues here and they are being conflated: - visa invitation letters for official visa application purposes to visit Belgium - from an organisation or person. This is what the thread so far discusses, but is not what Daniel requests. - visiting FOSDEM from an country whose citizens require visas to travel to Belgium FOSDEM is like the Grand Place or the Palais Royal de Bruxelles. A tourist (if they were deemed eligible for a tourist visa by all other criteria) should not need any other "reasons" to visit Brussels besides the fact that FOSDEM is being hosted there on X and Y dates. However, the embassy is trying to be extra cautious, and actually going into requesting pointless / impossible to get information. If you go to an event, you usually buy a ticket. The event organiser has invited you to their event in this manner (and some events are even more exclusive than "whoever has money for a ticket"). I believe this is what the embassy is after in this case. Remember that the free software developer has already been invited by another organisation (the free software project's org.) to attend FOSDEM. But, the embassy wants *FOSDEM* to also invite the developer to come - which FOSDEM already does just by putting up www.fosdem.org . So from FOSDEM's perspective there's nothing to do - they've already invited that developer as well as they can. I think that's what Daniel was requesting - a "pro-forma" self-service web form that specifically explained what FOSDEM is (not ticketed, etc.), and said "developer <insert name> is welcome to attend FOSDEM on <date> in Brussels, Belgium." I do agree it will be difficult to avoid confusion between this sort of informal invite and the official letters requested by government. On the other hand the embassy officials are clearly misunderstanding what FOSDEM is in this case. Otherwise they would have taken the word of <Free Software Project Ltd.> that <developer> is invited to Belgium to meet about <project>. There may well be something which can be done, but IMO we would need advice from the Ministry of Exterior (or at least this particular embassy) to understand what it is they want. Ideally they can be convinced FOSDEM cannot issue any letters since its website is its invitation to all across the globe. The problem is going to be finding somebody capable and willing to spend the time to do that... Greetings, Emanuil On 25 January 2016 at 08:55, Wouter Verhelst <wouter@fosdem.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:54:01AM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
That message wasn't asking them to do such a thing, it was only written out of respect for those contributors to our community who either can't attend or have to waste a significant amount of time and energy on such things in order to do so.
Be that as it may, we (FOSDEM) are not going to put ourselves at risk of legal problems just so we can make it easier for people to attend.
If we *can* make it easier for people to attend *without* putting FOSDEM vzw at risk of legal repercussions in case a person we don't actually know disappears, we will do so. Writing formal invitation letters from an automated website doesn't fit that bill, however.
-- It is easy to love a country that is famous for chocolate and beer
-- Barack Obama, speaking in Brussels, Belgium, 2014-03-26 _______________________________________________ FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/fosdem
On 25/01/16 08:55, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:54:01AM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
That message wasn't asking them to do such a thing, it was only written out of respect for those contributors to our community who either can't attend or have to waste a significant amount of time and energy on such things in order to do so.
Be that as it may, we (FOSDEM) are not going to put ourselves at risk of legal problems just so we can make it easier for people to attend.
If we *can* make it easier for people to attend *without* putting FOSDEM vzw at risk of legal repercussions in case a person we don't actually know disappears, we will do so. Writing formal invitation letters from an automated website doesn't fit that bill, however.
As a holder of an Indian passport, I've never had a problem attending Fosdem ( 7 so far! ). Except for the one year when I tried to use a sponsored / invited visa. That was far more painful for everyone involved, than just asking for a tourist visa on the cultural tickbox ( and supporting it with Fosdem's details ). Avoid agents, approach the embassy directly. And be ready to prove support ability and travel cover for the duration and have suitable insurance cover. regards,
On 25/01/16 15:23, Karanbir Singh wrote:
On 25/01/16 08:55, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 11:54:01AM +0100, Daniel Pocock wrote:
That message wasn't asking them to do such a thing, it was only written out of respect for those contributors to our community who either can't attend or have to waste a significant amount of time and energy on such things in order to do so. Be that as it may, we (FOSDEM) are not going to put ourselves at risk of legal problems just so we can make it easier for people to attend.
If we *can* make it easier for people to attend *without* putting FOSDEM vzw at risk of legal repercussions in case a person we don't actually know disappears, we will do so. Writing formal invitation letters from an automated website doesn't fit that bill, however. As a holder of an Indian passport, I've never had a problem attending Fosdem ( 7 so far! ). Except for the one year when I tried to use a sponsored / invited visa. That was far more painful for everyone involved, than just asking for a tourist visa on the cultural tickbox ( and supporting it with Fosdem's details ).
Were you always employed when applying for a visa? I've heard that people who are self-employed or students feel more discriminated against. In this case, the developers had requested the exemption from the visa fee on the basis that: a) they are attending a cultural event b) the organizer is a non-profit association Both submitted an invitation letter from another organization. One of them was asked to provide more proof of a connection with FOSDEM. Both received their visa at the end of last week I understand the reservations people have about formal invitation letters, there was some discussion off-list as well and it appears that some of these visa queries could be resolved by simply giving people entry tickets for FOSDEM. Registration for such entry tickets could still be optional. Nonetheless, it would eliminate the need for the developer to waste another phone call or visit to the embassy. Regards, Daniel
Daniel Pocock schreef op ma 18-01-2016 om 18:11 [+0100]:
Given that FOSDEM is a free event and that people don't normally register to attend, would the FOSDEM team consider providing a self-service web-form for guests like this who do need to "register" and obtain their invitation letters on demand?
That would void the point of the whole "invitation letter" system, and could put the legal entity behind FOSDEM at risk.
I'm not sure what you mean by that
As far as I understand it, FOSDEM is a free event where everybody is welcome, no matter which country they were born in. Giving somebody a personalized letter that says "Dear Bob, we invite you to FOSDEM" only seems like a logical extension to the statements already on the website inviting anybody and everybody.
I understand that it is different if the letter provides a financial guarantee, but that was not requested in this case.
I think people are confusing the legal/bureaucratic term "letter of invitation", which *does* involve a financial guarantee (and is most likely what embassy/consulate personnel mean when they use those words), with the simple letter you are talking about (and which should probably be called something different to avoid confusion).
- he rang them and they said they might consider other evidence, such as an entry ticket or having his name on the web site, given that he already provided an invitation letter from another organization
If that would be really useful, maybe next year (I don't know if they still have time for that right now) the FOSDEM organisation can set up a "voluntary registration system" that publishes the name & location (and possibly project involvement?) of everybody who "registers" in a list on the site? -- Jan Claeys
participants (8)
-
Andreas Kupfer -
Daniel Pocock -
Emanuil Tolev -
Gerry Demaret -
Jan Claeys -
Karanbir Singh -
Ludovic Brenta -
Wouter Verhelst