GSM BTS at Fosdem 2011?
Hi all, are there any plans to establish a GSM network next year? If yes, do we need to bring our own SIM cards? Is there anything I should look for when scavenging them? Would someone who works at a telco or similar be able to grab a few SIM cards (scrubbed clean of personal data, obviously)? Would it even help to have a common pool of assorted SIM cards to hand out to people? Personally, I think it would be awesome if things worked out this time :) Richard
Hi,
are there any plans to establish a GSM network next year?
Well, the problem is the hardware. To cover the fosdem, (both in capacity and area), you'd need 5 devices at the least. To make open source GSM you have two solutions : - OpenBSC + nanoBTS solutions - OpenBTS solutions. They're unfortunately not fully inter-operable yet. The first solution require nanoBTS. Each unit cost (new) about 4000 EUR. The second solution require a USRP (~1500 EUR) + PC/SBC at each site. So who has equipement that he'd be willing to loan to the FOSDEM ? (Given the high price, I guess some damage/stolen insurance would be needed). I have some, but not nearly enough.
If yes, do we need to bring our own SIM cards ?
SIM are the least of the problems :) Cheers, Sylvain
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 hello, here in germany we often use eventphone on opensource-events ... maybe you contact them ... but i don't know, if the can provide gsm or dect/voip/...-only ... just take a look at www.eventphone.de ... have a nice day .... "Sylvain Munaut" <246tnt@gmail.com> schrieb:
Hi,
are there any plans to establish a GSM network next year?
Well, the problem is the hardware.
To cover the fosdem, (both in capacity and area), you'd need 5 devices at the least.
To make open source GSM you have two solutions :
- OpenBSC + nanoBTS solutions - OpenBTS solutions.
They're unfortunately not fully inter-operable yet.
The first solution require nanoBTS. Each unit cost (new) about 4000 EUR. The second solution require a USRP (~1500 EUR) + PC/SBC at each site.
So who has equipement that he'd be willing to loan to the FOSDEM ? (Given the high price, I guess some damage/stolen insurance would be needed).
I have some, but not nearly enough.
If yes, do we need to bring our own SIM cards ?
SIM are the least of the problems :)
Cheers,
Sylvain _______________________________________________ FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org http://lists.fosdem.org/mailman/listinfo/fosdem -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: APG v1.0.7
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Hi Dirk,
here in germany we often use eventphone on opensource-events ... maybe you contact them ... but i don't know, if the can provide gsm or dect/voip/...-only ... just take a look at www.eventphone.de ...
A DECT network has been considered in the past but we didn't follow through on it, mainly because providing decent coverage would require a -lot- of equipment. Although the distance between the buildings furthest from each other is 'only' about 300 meters, those buildings have thick reinforced concrete walls which severly dampen EM frequencies. Cheers, JF -- Jan-Frederik Martens jfmartens@fosdem.org +32496959400 Fosdem 2010: 05 & 06/02/2011
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 13:59, Sylvain Munaut <246tnt@gmail.com> wrote:
So who has equipement that he'd be willing to loan to the FOSDEM ? (Given the high price, I guess some damage/stolen insurance would be needed).
FWIW, I poked Harald Welte about GSM at 27c3. I'll ask him about that when he gets back to me. Richard
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 02:33:25PM +0100, Richard Hartmann wrote:
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 13:59, Sylvain Munaut <246tnt@gmail.com> wrote:
So who has equipement that he'd be willing to loan to the FOSDEM ? (Given the high price, I guess some damage/stolen insurance would be needed).
FWIW, I poked Harald Welte about GSM at 27c3. I'll ask him about that when he gets back to me.
AIUI, there has been an attempt to do such a thing at FOSDEM before. However, the problem was that the required test license to be allowed to do so did not arrive in time. Is that understanding correct? If so, is someone making sure that it will not happen again? -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html
Hi,
AIUI, there has been an attempt to do such a thing at FOSDEM before. However, the problem was that the required test license to be allowed to do so did not arrive in time.
Well, the license _did_ get there in time for the FOSDEM itself. (like two weeks before). But since I was not sure I would get it, I hadn't made any preparation like asking people to register their phone, or make publicity, or interact with the the FOSDEM organizer :) I had the BTS with me last year and I did some tests, and it showed that two BTS wouldn't quite do the trick. For example, for the 27C3 event, that has a much more compact area to cover (everything is in the same building and not spread around), we use six nano BTS (on 3 different site, each site have 2 BTS configured as multi-TRX).
Is that understanding correct? If so, is someone making sure that it will not happen again?
If we can have the hardware, I can introduce a new request. But we'd have to be sure to get the HW and FOSDEM org support because the license isn't free (couple hundred euros or so). Cheers, Sylvain
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 22:59, Sylvain Munaut <246tnt@gmail.com> wrote:
I had the BTS with me last year and I did some tests, and it showed that two BTS wouldn't quite do the trick.
Partial coverage is better than no coverage. This is mainly about the coolness factor, giving you a place to play with real users, etc. At least, that is my interpretation.
For example, for the 27C3 event, that has a much more compact area to cover (everything is in the same building and not spread around), we use six nano BTS (on 3 different site, each site have 2 BTS configured as multi-TRX).
True, but the reception area along with the main stands should be doable if you position yourself at the stairs in the middle, no? That would leave one transmitter for Janson or one of the feeding areas.
If we can have the hardware, I can introduce a new request.
This might be obvious, but did you poke openbsc@lists.gnumonks.org ?
But we'd have to be sure to get the HW and FOSDEM org support because the license isn't free (couple hundred euros or so).
I just talked to Jochen Maes about it. As long as Fosdem staff does not have to do any work, they are fine with it. Obviously, you can get a switchport and an IP or two if you need them, but other than that, you would need to arrange for all equipment and work yourself. Personally, I have no problem donating something so you don't have to pay for the full licence out of your own pocket. I don't know if I will arrive early enough to join the beer event, let alone do any preparation work on friday. Richard
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Sylvain Munaut <246tnt@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
AIUI, there has been an attempt to do such a thing at FOSDEM before. However, the problem was that the required test license to be allowed to do so did not arrive in time.
Well, the license _did_ get there in time for the FOSDEM itself. (like two weeks before).
But since I was not sure I would get it, I hadn't made any preparation like asking people to register their phone, or make publicity, or interact with the the FOSDEM organizer :)
I had the BTS with me last year and I did some tests, and it showed that two BTS wouldn't quite do the trick.
For example, for the 27C3 event, that has a much more compact area to cover (everything is in the same building and not spread around), we use six nano BTS (on 3 different site, each site have 2 BTS configured as multi-TRX).
Is that understanding correct? If so, is someone making sure that it will not happen again?
If we can have the hardware, I can introduce a new request. But we'd have to be sure to get the HW and FOSDEM org support because the license isn't free (couple hundred euros or so).
Any plan to have a demo of OpenBTS for this FOSDEM? If money is a problem, I could try to find sponsors for that. -- Benjamin Henrion <bhenrion at ffii.org> FFII Brussels - +32-484-566109 - +32-2-4148403 "In July 2005, after several failed attempts to legalise software patents in Europe, the patent establishment changed its strategy. Instead of explicitly seeking to sanction the patentability of software, they are now seeking to create a central European patent court, which would establish and enforce patentability rules in their favor, without any possibility of correction by competing courts or democratically elected legislators."
Hi Benjamin, long time no see :)
Any plan to have a demo of OpenBTS for this FOSDEM?
I don't think so. Nobody applied for a license AFAIK and it's not far too late for this (the ibpt takes like 1.5 month to process a STA request).
If money is a problem, I could try to find sponsors for that.
Well, money is not the only problem. I'm not that interested in just providing a 'small' demo at a stand or something. OTOH, Running a live, usable network all over the FOSDEM ground, that's interesting. But to provide such a meaningful test network, you need equipement ... that I just don't have. Especially since OpenBSC and OpenBTS network are incompatible at the moment. (can't interact at a GSM level) And borrowing it from people not coming themselves to fosdem ist just inconvenient (shipping / responsability for the equipement / ...) There is also the issue of insurance. I mean all theses things (BTS/USRP) cost _a_lot_ and I would not risk them without proper assurance against stealing/damage. Even if 99.9 % of the people fosdem are responsible nice people, it only takes one ... (and that's not even counting outsiders that are not there for the fosdem). Now it's not _totally_ without hope for the future: - People are working on BTS side of A-Bis so plugging openbts in openbsc might become possible - Support for cheaper GSM microBTS is in the works (still 1kEUR ...) - Support for 3G femtocell is in the works (albeit more far off ...) (theses are much cheaper ~ 100-200 eur) - Converting phone to BTS (very far off as well, but we're hoping :) Cheers, Sylvain
On 2011-01-11 11:37:40 (+0100), Sylvain Munaut <246tnt@gmail.com> wrote:
Benjamin Henrion wrote:
If money is a problem, I could try to find sponsors for that.
[...]
I'm not that interested in just providing a 'small' demo at a stand or something.
Given the fact that FOSDEM is only two days and takes place in a relatively confined venue with a disproportionally hostile wireless environment, I do have some concerns about the added value of more than a "small" demo. It is unlikely that all of FOSDEM can be covered properly with easily available equipment at reasonable cost and within the constraints of a low-output-power test licence.
OTOH, Running a live, usable network all over the FOSDEM ground, that's interesting.
I won't dispute that it's interesting. I just wonder if it's worth the bother. I understand the "Mount Everest because it's there" argument, but it's a bit weak as only argument. Providing GSM communications for everyone at FOSDEM is unlikely to ever be possible without significant investments which are totally unjustifiable for a two-day event with everyone bumping into everyone at least ten times daily.
Now it's not _totally_ without hope for the future: - People are working on BTS side of A-Bis so plugging openbts in openbsc might become possible - Support for cheaper GSM microBTS is in the works (still 1kEUR ...) - Support for 3G femtocell is in the works (albeit more far off ...) (theses are much cheaper ~ 100-200 eur) - Converting phone to BTS (very far off as well, but we're hoping :)
I feel that for a GSM network to happen at FOSDEM, a number of things would need to happen (I'm sure I've written these things before, I am getting a strong sense of déja vu here): o A proper site-survey would need to be done to determine exactly how hostile the wireless environment is. We have some data about this from years of experience rolling out 802.11, but GSM really is not the same thing. o Commercially available equipment would need to either become a lot cheaper or a lot more reliable than it currently is. It makes no sense to invest a fortune in hardware that is still under active development and not proven to actually work. o Alternatively, and maybe preferably, a cisco-scale company in the GSM business would need to be willing to lend us the necessary equipment and the capable hands to manage it for the duration of the event. o Someone with appropriate skills and sufficient time would have to drive all this from the FOSDEM-side. At present, none of the FOSDEM team have any significant experience with GSM much beyond making phone calls. Nor do we have the time, the patience or the background to deal with the regulatory authority to get a useful licence to deploy this kind of technology. Also keep in mind that FOSDEM is an open source software developer conference and not a hacker conference. Organizing a developer room to colaborate on the development of an open source GSM stack or submitting presentations to the main program about such software would probably be a much more valuable use of the resources of FOSDEM than trying to deploy a full-scale GSM network just to poke around at it and "because we can". Having said all that: of course no one would object to a GSM network at FOSDEM. Realistically though, I don't think it's likely for the next couple of years to get anything more than a small-scale demo setup going. If anyone did show up to the FOSDEM team months in advance with a realistic, workable plan to deploy GSM at the conference (complete with costs to the FOSDEM organization in terms of insurance and manpower), we'd obviously be very enthusiastic about it. - Philip -- Philip Paeps Please don't Cc me, I am philip@fosdem.org subscribed to the list. "If you put butter and salt on it, it tastes like salty butter." -- Popcorn comes to the Discworld (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures)
Hi,
I won't dispute that it's interesting. I just wonder if it's worth the bother. I understand the "Mount Everest because it's there" argument, but it's a bit weak as only argument.
Well, we need to do test load of our software in real usage case ... you can't easily test with thousands of phones by yourself :)
o A proper site-survey would need to be done to determine exactly how hostile the wireless environment is. We have some data about this from years of experience rolling out 802.11, but GSM really is not the same thing.>
True ... GSM propagates way better and is capable of operating at -105 dBm signal level. Also being in a licensed band, there is way less noise than in 2.4GHz / 5GHz bands. I did some tests last year, which is why I said two BTS wouldn't quite cut it. You'd need 10 BTS or so for a good coverage I think. With 5 you could at least cover the area where most people are when outside of talks.
o Commercially available equipment would need to either become a lot cheaper or a lot more reliable than it currently is. It makes no sense to invest a fortune in hardware that is still under active development and not proven to actually work.
nanoBTS _are_ very reliable and field tested equipement.
o Alternatively, and maybe preferably, a cisco-scale company in the GSM business would need to be willing to lend us the necessary equipment and the capable hands to manage it for the duration of the event.
I doubt it will happen ... the people manufacturing nanoBTS / HSL / ... don't want us to drive their equipment with open source software. For some of them and 3G femto, they even actively put protection to prevent it and that we have to work around ...
o Someone with appropriate skills and sufficient time would have to drive all this from the FOSDEM-side. At present, none of the FOSDEM team have any significant experience with GSM much beyond making phone calls. Nor do we have the time, the patience or the background to deal with the regulatory authority to get a useful licence to deploy this kind of technology.
Well, if all the other obstactle I cited were not in the way, I'd take care of getting the licence and running the network.
If anyone did show up to the FOSDEM team months in advance with a realistic, workable plan to deploy GSM at the conference (complete with costs to the FOSDEM organization in terms of insurance and manpower), we'd obviously be very enthusiastic about it.
That's exactly why I didn't raise the issue myself this year : Because I didn't think it could be done _yet_. Cheers, Sylvain
On Tue, 2011-01-11 at 14:27 +0100, Sylvain Munaut wrote:
Hi,
I won't dispute that it's interesting. I just wonder if it's worth the bother. I understand the "Mount Everest because it's there" argument, but it's a bit weak as only argument.
Well, we need to do test load of our software in real usage case ... you can't easily test with thousands of phones by yourself :)
the one that sniffs communications ? ;)
2011/1/11 Raphaël Jacquot <sxpert@sxpert.org>:
the one that sniffs communications ? ;)
GSM in its current has been shown to be completely broken. Assuming you have a reasonably new PC, soldering equipment etc, the total additional hardware costs of sniffing and decrypting any given GSM connection, without fear of detection, amount to roughly 150 Euro. You need four Motorola C123 (or similar) and a 2 TB disk. That's it. Google for osmocon and/or the related talk at 27c3. That you should not trust an Open GSM connection any more than the wired/unwired IP network in any public place, including Fosdem, is a given. Either you need encryption or you need to limit yourself to giving out information that you have _no_ problem being public. "Let's meet outside and grab fries before going to talk X" falls into that category.
On Wed, 2011-01-12 at 14:17 +0100, Richard Hartmann wrote:
2011/1/11 Raphaël Jacquot <sxpert@sxpert.org>:
the one that sniffs communications ? ;)
GSM in its current has been shown to be completely broken. Assuming you have a reasonably new PC, soldering equipment etc, the total additional hardware costs of sniffing and decrypting any given GSM connection, without fear of detection, amount to roughly 150 Euro. You need four Motorola C123 (or similar) and a 2 TB disk. That's it.
Google for osmocon and/or the related talk at 27c3.
That you should not trust an Open GSM connection any more than the wired/unwired IP network in any public place, including Fosdem, is a given. Either you need encryption or you need to limit yourself to giving out information that you have _no_ problem being public. "Let's meet outside and grab fries before going to talk X" falls into that category.
yeah, I watched the video from this year's congress. impressive... btw, congrats to sylvain ;)
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On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Philip Paeps <philip@fosdem.org> wrote:
Organizing a developer room to colaborate on the development of an open source GSM stack or submitting presentations to the main program about such software would probably be a much more valuable use of the resources of FOSDEM than trying to deploy a full-scale GSM network just to poke around at it and "because we can".
I would be very interested in such a devroom, or even full conference. -- Pau Garcia i Quiles http://www.elpauer.org (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer)
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 04:05:07PM +0100, Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Philip Paeps <philip@fosdem.org> wrote:
Organizing a developer room to colaborate on the development of an open source GSM stack or submitting presentations to the main program about such software would probably be a much more valuable use of the resources of FOSDEM than trying to deploy a full-scale GSM network just to poke around at it and "because we can".
I would be very interested in such a devroom, or even full conference.
For clarity: obviously it's far too late now to start such a devroom. But next year, that'd be nice. -- The biometric identification system at the gates of the CIA headquarters works because there's a guard with a large gun making sure no one is trying to fool the system. http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/01/biometrics.html
Dear all, I wonder if someone can send me a pointer to the detailed program of this year's FOSDEM event. I browsed the event's website at http://www.fosdem.org/2011/ but in vain! Thanking you in anticipation. Syed -- *Syed Naqvi, PhD* R&D Project Manager Software & System Engineering Dpt. Tel: +32 71 49 07 41 GSM: +32 4 93 70 93 95 Specialised in Information and Communication Technologies, *CETIC* is positioned as a centre of excellence in technological support for business. More information on www.cetic.be <http://www.cetic.be>
On 2011-01-11 14:35:48 (+0100), Syed Naqvi <syed.naqvi@cetic.be> wrote:
I wonder if someone can send me a pointer to the detailed program of this year's FOSDEM event.
If they can, I would like to borrow their time machine.
I browsed the event's website at http://www.fosdem.org/2011/ but in vain!
That's because it's not there yet. We're working hard on wrapping up the program and we realize that (as usual) we are quite late (again). As soon as the program is finalized, there will be an announcement on this list. Please to relax. Thank you. - Philip -- Philip Paeps Please don't Cc me, I am philip@fosdem.org subscribed to the list.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 14:38, Philip Paeps <philip@fosdem.org> wrote:
On 2011-01-11 14:35:48 (+0100), Syed Naqvi <syed.naqvi@cetic.be> wrote:
I wonder if someone can send me a pointer to the detailed program of this year's FOSDEM event.
If they can, I would like to borrow their time machine.
I browsed the event's website at http://www.fosdem.org/2011/ but in vain!
That's because it's not there yet. We're working hard on wrapping up the program and we realize that (as usual) we are quite late (again). As soon as the program is finalized, there will be an announcement on this list.
Please to relax. Thank you.
- Philip
Philip, till when do you need the devroom schedules for inclusion in the (printed) program? - Marius
On 2011-01-11 15:07:44 (+0100), Marius Nünnerich <marius@nuenneri.ch> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 14:38, Philip Paeps <philip@fosdem.org> wrote:
On 2011-01-11 14:35:48 (+0100), Syed Naqvi <syed.naqvi@cetic.be> wrote:
I wonder if someone can send me a pointer to the detailed program of this year's FOSDEM event.
If they can, I would like to borrow their time machine.
I browsed the event's website at http://www.fosdem.org/2011/ but in vain!
That's because it's not there yet. We're working hard on wrapping up the program and we realize that (as usual) we are quite late (again). As soon as the program is finalized, there will be an announcement on this list.
Please to relax. Thank you.
till when do you need the devroom schedules for inclusion in the (printed) program?
Our printing deadline is "late this month" (though for obvious reasons we don't want to leave it too late). I'm currently trying to convince our pentabarf to let devroom coordinators like yourself enter their schedules. Devroom coordinators can expect email from Tias or myself Real Soon Now[tm] to set them loose on pentabarf to enter their schedules. The plan is to extract the data for the printer from pentabarf (with a questionable perl script of course) as close as possible to the printing deadline. - Philip -- Philip Paeps Please don't Cc me, I am philip@fosdem.org subscribed to the list.
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 15:15, Philip Paeps <philip@fosdem.org> wrote:
On 2011-01-11 15:07:44 (+0100), Marius Nünnerich <marius@nuenneri.ch> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 14:38, Philip Paeps <philip@fosdem.org> wrote:
On 2011-01-11 14:35:48 (+0100), Syed Naqvi <syed.naqvi@cetic.be> wrote:
I wonder if someone can send me a pointer to the detailed program of this year's FOSDEM event.
If they can, I would like to borrow their time machine.
I browsed the event's website at http://www.fosdem.org/2011/ but in vain!
That's because it's not there yet. We're working hard on wrapping up the program and we realize that (as usual) we are quite late (again). As soon as the program is finalized, there will be an announcement on this list.
Please to relax. Thank you.
till when do you need the devroom schedules for inclusion in the (printed) program?
Our printing deadline is "late this month" (though for obvious reasons we don't want to leave it too late). I'm currently trying to convince our pentabarf to let devroom coordinators like yourself enter their schedules.
Devroom coordinators can expect email from Tias or myself Real Soon Now[tm] to set them loose on pentabarf to enter their schedules. The plan is to extract the data for the printer from pentabarf (with a questionable perl script of course) as close as possible to the printing deadline.
That sounds like a really good idea. Thanks for working on it.
(not picking on Richard, just the first email in this thread) Could we try to keep this mailing list low traffic and related to FOSDEM organizational issues please? It's been established that we're too late this year to organize a GSM network at FOSDEM. Let's try not to drift too far off-topic. Discussions are ongoing off-list to see if we can do this next year and what form it would take. Thanks. - Philip -- Philip Paeps Please don't Cc me, I am philip@fosdem.org subscribed to the list.
participants (11)
-
Benjamin Henrion -
dirk astrath -
Jan-Frederik Martens -
Marius Nünnerich -
Pau Garcia i Quiles -
Philip Paeps -
Raphaël Jacquot -
Richard Hartmann -
Syed Naqvi -
Sylvain Munaut -
Wouter Verhelst