matrix accounts on fosdem.org ... do they stay?
Hi all, I know some people who have now created a matrix-account on the fosdem.org matrix-server for this weekend. Will this matrix account stay active? Or where they only intended for this weekend? Kr.
On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 07:34:29PM +0100, Kristoff wrote:
I know some people who have now created a matrix-account on the fosdem.org matrix-server for this weekend. Will this matrix account stay active? Or where they only intended for this weekend?
The simple answer is that we haven't decided yet. If you have opinions on this or any other aspect of this year's FOSDEM, please let feedback@fosdem.org know! Alasdair
Is it possible to download the conversations of a room? On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 6:51 PM Alasdair G Kergon <agk@fosdem.org> wrote:
On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 07:34:29PM +0100, Kristoff wrote:
I know some people who have now created a matrix-account on the fosdem.org matrix-server for this weekend. Will this matrix account stay active? Or where they only intended for this weekend?
The simple answer is that we haven't decided yet.
If you have opinions on this or any other aspect of this year's FOSDEM, please let feedback@fosdem.org know!
Alasdair
_______________________________________________ FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/fosdem
Hi Alasdair, On 7/02/2021 7:51 p.m., Alasdair G Kergon wrote:
I know some people who have now created a matrix-account on the fosdem.org matrix-server for this weekend. Will this matrix account stay active? Or where they only intended for this weekend?
The simple answer is that we haven't decided yet. If you have opinions on this or any other aspect of this year's FOSDEM, please let feedback@fosdem.org know!
I do not really have an opinion on this. I just asked this to know if I should advice them to get an account somewhere else, or not. :-) On one side, it is good publicity to have the 'fosdem.org' name become part of the matrix landscape. On the other hand, you can ask yourself if it the job of fosdem to continuously support a service (i.e. the matrix server) while there do are sufficient other services that already do this. I think the call is completely up to you! :-) I will adapt based on your decision.
Alasdair Kristoff
On Sun, Feb 07, 2021 at 09:21:50PM +0100, Kristoff wrote:
Hi Alasdair,
Hey Mailing List,
On 7/02/2021 7:51 p.m., Alasdair G Kergon wrote:
I know some people who have now created a matrix-account on the fosdem.org matrix-server for this weekend. Will this matrix account stay active? Or where they only intended for this weekend? The simple answer is that we haven't decided yet. If you have opinions on this or any other aspect of this year's FOSDEM, please let feedback@fosdem.org know!
I do not really have an opinion on this.
I just asked this to know if I should advice them to get an account somewhere else, or not. :-)
On one side, it is good publicity to have the 'fosdem.org' name become part of the matrix landscape.
True
On the other hand, you can ask yourself if it the job of fosdem to continuously support a service (i.e. the matrix server) while there do are sufficient other services that already do this.
Hopefully _not_ gratuite
I think the call is completely up to you! :-)
:-)
I will adapt based on your decision.
Please don't lay your head on the chopping block, find/make/do what sustains what you deem important.
Alasdair Kristoff
FOSDEM mailing list FOSDEM@lists.fosdem.org https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/fosdem
Groeten Geert Stappers -- Silence is hard to parse
On 07/02/2021 21:33, Geert Stappers wrote:
I will adapt based on your decision.
Please don't lay your head on the chopping block, find/make/do what sustains what you deem important.
To complete that comment, I can only refer to this thread https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2021-February/038137.html For events of this nature, it could be interesting to explore SIP-P2P, XMPP Serverless and other P2P options in future, this would allow the conference to run well and eliminate post-event responsibilities for the FOSDEM volunteers The upstream developers would be eternally grateful for the feedback from users. I recently made a backport[1] of the latest Jami for Debian buster Regards, Daniel 1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/jami/2021-02/msg00004.html
I thought about this a lot. Initially I thought we should keep it, but: Ongoing maintenance can be automated away. But what about abuse reports, etc? From freenode, I know how much time that eats, and it never ends. Do we have the people who want to commit to doing that work? A middle ground might be to keep it running for a week, then archive it and re-use next year. Or just send everyone a message with "you have one week to back up" and then delete it all. The one consideration: Should we archive public conversations alongside the public recordings? I am torn. On Sun, Feb 7, 2021 at 9:22 PM Kristoff <kristoff@skypro.be> wrote:
Hi Alasdair,
On 7/02/2021 7:51 p.m., Alasdair G Kergon wrote:
I know some people who have now created a matrix-account on the fosdem.org matrix-server for this weekend. Will this matrix account stay active? Or where they only intended for this weekend?
The simple answer is that we haven't decided yet. If you have opinions on this or any other aspect of this year's FOSDEM, please let feedback@fosdem.org know!
I do not really have an opinion on this.
I just asked this to know if I should advice them to get an account somewhere else, or not. :-)
On one side, it is good publicity to have the 'fosdem.org' name become part of the matrix landscape. On the other hand, you can ask yourself if it the job of fosdem to continuously support a service (i.e. the matrix server) while there do are sufficient other services that already do this.
I think the call is completely up to you! :-) I will adapt based on your decision.
Alasdair Kristoff
feedback mailing list feedback@lists.fosdem.org https://lists.fosdem.org/listinfo/feedback
On Monday, February 8, 2021, Richard Hartmann <richih@richih.org> wrote:
A middle ground might be to keep it running for a week, then archive it and re-use next year.
considerations: * how much effort was it to set up? * clearly it was successful (brilliantly do), do people want to go through the setup cost again? * continuity: will people be pissed if next year they have to set up a new fosdem account? * is there any way the service, now established and proven, could be offered to *other conferences*? (not at zero cost obviously) * or, would something better come along by next year, and all of the above is moot? given how frickin good it was, i mean, why not actually set it up as a CIC (Community Interest Company) just like lowRISC and actually charge it out to other conferences, commercial or Free Software? one conference i presented at a few months back, they were so unsupportive because they'd used some proprietary system, and i couldn't log in and get audio running, i couldn't participate in chat with other attendees and couldn't attend Q&A. another, their default chat system was slack for god's sake! again: discriminated against for not accepting slack's terms and conditions. matrix, jitsi, elements.io on android and web browser combined, along with bridging ro IRC, works spectacularly well and is inclusive in ways that other conference systems have not been able to achieve. *this is a really valuable business service* l. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
good morning, Am Mon, Feb 08, 2021 at 01:43:23PM +0100 schrieb Richard Hartmann:
I thought about this a lot. Initially I thought we should keep it, but:
Ongoing maintenance can be automated away. But what about abuse reports, etc? From freenode, I know how much time that eats, and it never ends. Do we have the people who want to commit to doing that work?
I won't go by with this. Without disclosing names, have you get in touch with the people behind the moderation and did you asked them about this? I think not. There is the option to let chat.fosdem.org alive, freezing/deleting now (or even in a few weeks) the community is not a good step after what we achieved here...imho! greetings Shin -- I'm just a placeholder for a really awesome signature... ...that is still missing *sob*
Hello, just my thoughts (as a long term visitor): FOSDEM is a conference and all the years before we had only our memories, own notes etc. left afterwards. (Not to forget the recorded talks not to forget, great achievement!) This year I saved the relevant discussions (where I was involved and what might still be worth looking at as it contains technical stuff, not the coffee talk). These took place either in a public place (devroom chat) or it was personal communication. So it should be safe regarding GPDR. I'm fine with shutting down the servers soon and delete all data. Everybody who joined the conference is surely impressed by the system that was build and even with some issues in the t-shirt shop in the beginning it was really impressive! Now we've seen what's possible and people interested can build their own servers or federations or just register an account somewhere. I don't think this is a task for the FOSDEM team. FOSDEM is a lighthouse event in the Free and Open * universe, there is no need to push this brand by running additional services 24/7. As I said, just MHO :-) Groetjes Claus -- -- Claus R. Wickinghoff, Dipl.-Ing. using Linux since 1994 and still happy... :-)
On 09/02/2021 11:06, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote:
Hello,
just my thoughts (as a long term visitor):
FOSDEM is a conference and all the years before we had only our memories, own notes etc. left afterwards. (Not to forget the recorded talks not to forget, great achievement!)
This year I saved the relevant discussions (where I was involved and what might still be worth looking at as it contains technical stuff, not the coffee talk). These took place either in a public place (devroom chat) or it was personal communication. So it should be safe regarding GPDR.
I'm fine with shutting down the servers soon and delete all data.
There are some interesting discoveries in the chat logs For example, I found that my OBS setup (via v4l2-loopback) was not recognized by Jitsi in FOSDEM but it works fine with regular Jitsi. After investigating, I found that OBS needs to be configured for a 4:3 aspect ratio instead of 16:9 output, then it worked. I finally used 4:3, 480p, 25fps. I shared that feedback in a couple of channels for anybody else who may have been stuck. It could be useful to keep the information available for people to search. For example, if somebody used v4l2-loopback as a search query, they would probably find the above tip. It may also be possible for dev-room managers to curate their chat history or decide if it belongs in a public archive on a case-by-case basis. Regards, Daniel -- Debian Developer https://danielpocock.com
Hi Daniel, On Tue, Feb 9, 2021 at 11:18 AM Daniel Pocock <daniel@pocock.pro> wrote:
On 09/02/2021 11:06, Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote:
just my thoughts (as a long term visitor):
FOSDEM is a conference and all the years before we had only our memories, own notes etc. left afterwards. (Not to forget the recorded talks not to forget, great achievement!)
This year I saved the relevant discussions (where I was involved and what might still be worth looking at as it contains technical stuff, not the coffee talk). These took place either in a public place (devroom chat) or it was personal communication. So it should be safe regarding GPDR.
I'm fine with shutting down the servers soon and delete all data.
There are some interesting discoveries in the chat logs
For example, I found that my OBS setup (via v4l2-loopback) was not recognized by Jitsi in FOSDEM but it works fine with regular Jitsi. After investigating, I found that OBS needs to be configured for a 4:3 aspect ratio instead of 16:9 output, then it worked. I finally used 4:3, 480p, 25fps.
I shared that feedback in a couple of channels for anybody else who may have been stuck.
It could be useful to keep the information available for people to search. For example, if somebody used v4l2-loopback as a search query, they would probably find the above tip.
It may also be possible for dev-room managers to curate their chat history or decide if it belongs in a public archive on a case-by-case basis.
In general, dev-room managers should contain lots of useful information. But given that's a lot of unstructured information buried in useless (after the fact) data, I think it would be better for someone to go over it, and distill the relevant information into a published FAQ. Gr{oetje,eeting}s, Geert -- Geert Uytterhoeven -- There's lots of Linux beyond ia32 -- geert@linux-m68k.org In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that. -- Linus Torvalds
Hi all, On 9/02/2021 11:06 a.m., Claus R. Wickinghoff wrote:
Hello,
just my thoughts (as a long term visitor):
FOSDEM is a conference and all the years before we had only our memories, own notes etc. left afterwards. (Not to forget the recorded talks not to forget, great achievement!)
This year I saved the relevant discussions (where I was involved and what might still be worth looking at as it contains technical stuff, not the coffee talk). These took place either in a public place (devroom chat) or it was personal communication. So it should be safe regarding GPDR.
I'm fine with shutting down the servers soon and delete all data.
Come to think about it, I think there are two different issues here: - the user@gnuradio.org matrix accounts - the rooms (including their content) For the rooms, I stay with my previous mail. For the accounts, I guess the workload to maintain this part is a lot lower. But the question is, although this would allow people who now have a matrix account via FOSDEM to use it to connect to rooms on other matrix servers, how many people are actually aware of this feature? And, as they can just as easy get an account on any other matrix server, ... would the investment by the FOSDEM people for this be worth it? But, as said, this is not for me to descide. Cheerio! Kr, Bonne.
hi all, also interesting point is, that the "rooms" will survive even after chat.fosdem.org is should down. because each user from another homeserver has an "instance" of the fosdem room. best, ralf
Hi Richard, On 8/02/2021 1:43 p.m., Richard Hartmann wrote:
I thought about this a lot. Initially I thought we should keep it, but:
Ongoing maintenance can be automated away. But what about abuse reports, etc? From freenode, I know how much time that eats, and it never ends. Do we have the people who want to commit to doing that work?
A middle ground might be to keep it running for a week, then archive it and re-use next year. ...
I am not a lawyer, but I doubt this would be legal. The GDPR is quite clear about this. If you keep information about people, you have a number of obligration (like the right of review by the user, ...) which you must be able to apply. Archiving information about people without their explicit concent is not legal. As I see it, the choice is simple: - either you maintain a service with all legal requirements that come with it. (e.g. you must still be able to intervene if your platform is used for illegal purposes, e.g. if somebody starts filling it with rascist comments and the moderator does not intervene). So this requires continues manpower (euh. womanpower ... euh personpower :-) ). - either you simply delete everything. Kristoff
On Tuesday, February 9, 2021, Kristoff <kristoff@skypro.be> wrote:
Archiving information about people without their explicit concent is not
legal. oh fer f****'s sake. so if anyone running a cloud server takes it temporarily offline (simply switches off the VM for maintenance purposes) that's ILLEGAL? what total moron created that law. err i mean to say, more diplomatically: there is probably something unintented here or there must be some sort of provision. still, if that was an unforseen mistake and there is a decision to switch off the VM but preserve the disk (not quite the same thing as archive) it can be "fixed" by sending out notifications, "hey everyone we forgot the moronic^H^H^H^H^H^H GDPR can you please give your consent otherwise we have to destroy your account and all conversations" l. -- --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
Luke, On 9/02/2021 12:23 p.m., Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
Archiving information about people without their explicit concent is not legal. oh fer f****'s sake. so if anyone running a cloud server takes it temporarily offline (simply switches off the VM for maintenance purposes) that's ILLEGAL?
I think you understand that this is a completely different issue. The discussion here is about freezing an archive now, storing it for a year and reusing it next year. What you mention is a technical activity with a very limited timespan. You know. There is nothing wrong with information being deleted. Jitsi has a good rule for this: once the last person leaves the room, the room, including all chats, are automatically deleted. I don't exactly know how the matrix rooms work. I guess that when a room is deleted, also all the information is also deleted, but I don't know what happens when a room is never deleted (as happens with most rooms) Is information older then "x" time deleted, or is it stored indefinitely? Anycase, I have noticed that it is not easy to retrieve information from long time ago especially in rooms with a lot of chats-traffic. So, in that case, it is very simple: if the information cannot be retrieved by the user, it has not value to the user, so there is no reason to store that information and -hence- it should be deleted. In that sense, no there is no problem with temporary offline storage of a VM for maintenance purposes, but it is common sense to delete/wipe the temporary storage afterwards. If you company would have a cybersecurity breach and it turns out that person-related information was retrieved from a backup VM image you still have on a server and was not deleted or not encrypted, you'll be in big problems and can count a DGPR fine! So do not underestimate this! Kr.
On Tue, 9 Feb 2021 at 12:38, Kristoff <kristoff@skypro.be> wrote:
You know. There is nothing wrong with information being deleted. Jitsi has a good rule for this: once the last person leaves the room, the room, including all chats, are automatically deleted. I don't exactly know how the matrix rooms work. I guess that when a room is deleted, also all the information is also deleted, but I don't know what happens when a room is never deleted (as happens with most rooms) Is information older then "x" time deleted, or is it stored indefinitely?
The whole discussion could do with someone from the Matrix team weighing in. As I understand it, most/all of the rooms are probably already replicated beyond chat.fosdem.org, due to the way Matrix works. Shutting down chat.fosdem.org is not going to "freeze" anything. Worst case I imagine it trying to catch up on 12 months of activity when it is restarted in 2022 :) This also has implications for people saying it should be deleted. The messages are already out on the Matrix network. There may be processes to request deletion of this data remotely, but no guarantee. Such is the nature of a decentralized/federated network. As for consent, people already agreed to the terms when registering an account on the service (including that chats may be federated and shared with other servers). All the above aside, I would personally be in favour of just deleting everything, as with all the ephemeral discussions that take place during a normal event. FOSDEM is an annual conference, it's not meant to be an archive of attendees interactions. Regards, Matthew
participants (12)
-
Alasdair G Kergon -
Claus R. Wickinghoff -
Daniel Pocock -
Geert Stappers -
Geert Uytterhoeven -
Gijs Reulen -
Kristoff -
Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton -
Matthew Wild -
ralf -
Richard Hartmann -
Shin Ice